Natural Attraction

Spot likes me

Genesis 2:18 The Lord God said: It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suited to him.

Twice the Bible speaks of evil people as being “without natural affection”. But we are also warned to stay away from evil women:

Proverbs 23:27 For a whore is a deep ditch; and a strange woman is a narrow pit. 28 She also lieth in wait as for a prey, and increaseth the transgressors among men.

Proverbs 5:3 For the lips of an immoral woman drip honey, And her mouth is smoother than oil;

I wonder if that last verse, or Proverbs 23:27 above, are sexual euphemisms?
So, what are we to do?

1Corinthians 7:8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I. 9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.

1Corinthians 7:28 But if you marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned. Yet such will have trouble in this life, and I am trying to spare you.

Please share your thoughts on this subject.

47 thoughts on “Natural Attraction

  1. Bee,
    Thank you for your comment linking to my blog from Dalrock’s site. I have been swamped lately at work and with personal drama. I apologize for the above post that I just threw together last night to have something new up. Hopefully the Bible verses will help spur somebody’s mind to thinking some thoughts they’d like to share with the rest of us. I was going to go into how; if women were taught that men alone were the image of God, then they’d be more attracted to them.

    Like

  2. I’m not going to comment on any supposed sexual euphemisms in the Bible. There may well be many, and those verses above might be some, but honestly, I Googled that one day and the way some people have interpreted some Bible verses was actually frightening. I found one site that explained how one verse in the Bible (I can’t remember which verse, but it was in Proverbs) was instructing women to keep their lady parts clean-shaven. Twisted people can twist the Bible to mean whatever they want, so I tend to stay away from that sort of thing now. I found it offensive how God’s inerrant word could be twisted so crazily.

    However, I can say that, from the perspective of a woman, whether or not we believe that men alone were made in the image of God has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on how attractive they are to us.
    Women perhaps aren’t as visual as men are, but first and foremost, the thing that we are going to notice most is a man’s looks. There will be something about him that grabs our attention. It might be the whole package (from a distance): tall, muscular etc. It might be the way his shaggy hair touches his collar. It might be his kind, dark eyes. It might be the dimple in his chiselled jaw or the five o’clock shadow darkening it. It might be his huge, strong hands, his broad shoulders….. you get the picture. Attractiveness, first and foremost, is about looks.
    After we notice his looks, there will be need to be something else that holds our attention for us to find him attractive. This is where it gets deeper. It’s more than just a deep voice, a rakish wink and a nice smile. It will be his conversational ability, the words he chooses, the tone he uses, his eye contact. The way he speaks is important. Women are easily charmed by men who are skilled in this area.
    Once he’s got our attention, whether or not he keeps it will depends on what we learn as we get to know him. Do his beliefs (political, faith etc.) align with ours? Is he kind, good, dependable? Does he have a steady job? How does he treat customer service staff and waitresses? Is he patient and slow to anger? Does he treat us well? Does he make us feel special? Does he like animals? Do we share similar interests? Does he have a good sense of humour? Are we attracted to his personality?

    Honestly, it’s actually pretty simple. It’s nothing to do with whether or not we think men are made in the image of God. It’s much more simple than that. Selfish, almost. Initial attractiveness is nothing to do with reverence or awe or anything like that, (which seems to be what you’re implying by suggesting that women would find men more attractive if we believe they are solely made in God’s image). It all comes down to how he makes us feel. It is that simple. Long-term, especially in a marriage, it’s about choices and choosing to love, choosing to respect etc. But initially, at the purely attractiveness stage, it’s pretty simple. Good looking, manly men who make us feel special, are the most attractive to us.

    This is why romance novels are so popular with women. The heroes are pretty much the perfect man: good looking, good job, kind, gentle, but manly at the same time… and treat their women like queens.

    Liked by 1 person

  3. Ace,
    Much of what you say is in fact why a woman would prefer one man over another. But if women thought less of themselves and more of men in general, then I believe they’d be less likely to become dissatisfied with the man they chose, after they’d married him, generally speaking. If you give a third-world beggar a tarnished coin, he will be happy to receive it, and own it, and use it. Even if you offer a millionaire a nice coin, he might just decline it or pitch it into the nearest fountain. So if a woman feels that the same man is far above her as opposed to thinking him to be her equal, I think, long term she will be more satisfied with him even though the only difference is in her perception and belief.

    The surviving writings of the patristic fathers of the early church, describe married wives as so often being the more demanding of sex from their husbands, which is seemingly the opposite of today’s problem, where so many women are not hardly wanting sex with their husbands. In the patristic age, these women were taught to reverence their husbands as the image and glory of God, while being shamefaced themselves. I believe that might well be the explanation for the enduringness of their fleshly appetite. It is hard to keep pleased the woman who feels like she always deserves to be treated like a queen.

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Sharkly – Long term, I think you are right, but I was talking about initial attraction, specifically. Keeping attraction going long-term is a whole different ballgame.

    The happiest, longest marriages I know (and I’m talking 40 + years) are those where the wife treats her husband like her king. Not her equal, not her partner, but her King. And I’ve noticed that in turn, the husband treats his wife like his queen. And he doesn’t treat her like that because she thinks she deserves it, but because she treats him so well, with so much respect and kindness, that it’s a natural reaction for him to treat her so well in return.

    To be honest, I don’t think that women not wanting sex with their husbands is anything to do with whether or not we believe men are made solely in the image of God. I think it’s more to do with stress, hormones (artificial hormones) and pollutants in our daily lives interfering with our bodies. I mean, artificial hormones are everywhere! They’re in plastic, disposable nappies, moisturisers, food….. How can we think this doesn’t affect us? Back in the patristic age, attitude may have had something to do with it, sure. But their bodies also would not have been filled up with artificial hormones and radiation from cell phones etc. and chemicals in skincare etc. I mean, speaking for me personally, there are certain times of the month when I’m definitely desiring intimacy more than at other times, due solely to fluctuating hormones.

    Like

  5. Biblical exegesis is not my forte, but I’m interested in the picture.

    Those clothes she’s wearing look to be from the 80’s to me, but I really don’t have much to base that on. She could be 14 or she could 18. Who takes a picture like that? Its just kinda weird.

    Like

  6. Kentucky Headhunter,
    I found the base picture via an image safe-search, and then modified it. As I recall, there was some vague indicator that the image was sourced from pornography. So, I assume, pornographers are who takes a picture like that. I personally don’t recommend researching the image further. I just thought it depicted a visibly obvious indicator of a woman’s heightened sexual arousal. Without actually showing or outlining her sexual bits and pieces.

    Not trying to AMOG, but I’ve seen women wet through their pants like that when they were flirting with me, so I was familiar with the phenomenon.

    Liked by 1 person

  7. Porn and sexual euphemisms? You should keep focused on following Jesus.

    (And no, these are not sexual euphemisms, but figures of speech. In case of doubt FIRST start to read some commentaries, give it a try…)

    Liked by 1 person

  8. Welcome back Paul,
    I have missed you. Perhaps figure of speech is a better description than euphemism. And maybe you could enlighten us as to what they might mean. I’m sure different commentaries will give different ideas. And unfortunately I’ve got to prepare for being in court tomorrow. I’d love to hear your take on that though, as I think you can often present some really strong Biblical arguments.

    Like

  9. Hi Sharkly, I hope things are going OK with you, given the lousy circumstances. Keep close to Jesus, He will guide and lead you. I recently saw an inspiring and encouraging talk by Robert Gagnon (the NT professor famous for his airtight defense against homosexuality) which addresses the normality of suffering in the life of a true Christian; maybe it will encourage you too:

    As for the interpretation, I could probably not say it better than some of the well-known commentators (who are easy available, even online, such as at
    https://biblehub.com/commentaries/proverbs/23-27.htm)

    “A narrow pit is one with a narrow mouth, from which, if one falls into it, it is difficult to extricate one’s self. The verse indicates the seductive nature of the vice of unchastity: how easy it is to be led into it! how difficult to rise from it!”

    “For a whore is a deep ditch,…. Or, “as a deep ditch”, so Aben Ezra; to which she may be compared for the filthiness of her whoredoms, and for her insatiable lust, as well as for her being never satisfied with what she receives from her lovers. Plautus compares (g) her to the sea, which devours whatever you give, and yet nothing appears; and another (h) calls a whore Charybdis, from her swallowing up and devouring all a man has. She is as a ditch that has no bottom, into which those that fall are ever sinking deeper and deeper, till they get into the bottomless pit; for there is seldom any recovery from this dreadful evil;”

    etc., you get the picture.

    Like

  10. Thanks Paul,
    I listened to the sermon, and parts of it were encouraging, and I could certainly use some encouragement, or better yet, for things to stop going against me. Just when I thought I might be getting somewhere on a few things, they all turned for the worse. This world is getting more evil, but, is calling those of us who want to follow God’s word, evil. By believing God, I make myself at enmity with the whole world, and phony churches too. Please pray for me. I’m in quite a tough spot, and it looks like it will get even worse, before it ever gets better, if and when I ever see good days again in this life. Unlike Dalrock, I’m not a happily married father. I’m a Christian man methodically being bereft of everything I had, by those who are dutybound to love me.

    Liked by 1 person

  11. I saw you mention on Monday that you were going back to court on Tuesday. I was hoping for a good report but I see that is not the case. For what it’s worth, I have been and continue to pray for you and your family. May God’s Will be done.

    Liked by 1 person

  12. Well, the court went OK, I guess. My former divorce lawyer had been over charging me and even billed me for matters where he had stated in writing that he was not going to represent me without a deposit and signed contract. We haven’t even been to court yet, just mainly been asking for extensions, for time to try to reconcile,(while my wife still dodges all joint counselling, or productive communication) and my legal bill was already up to around $10,000. He was billing me for around $5,700 remaining unpaid and after a few words, the judge just decided to grant his lien, but knocked it down to $4,000. So at least I got some of the inflated billing reduced, even though I don’t think he deserves even that much. But my family is quickly crumbling, things are really bad at work, the CFO and another top financial guy both just “resigned” today for illegally pushing losses forward, on top of an already extremely bad company situation. And If I can’t get some property sold, and my sisters paid off, all of my property may be auctioned off. And I am beginning to suspect the buyer I’m dealing with, will possibly crap out on me before I go to court again next week for that. And I can’t really move somewhere with better career prospects, or I will lose all remaining physical interaction with my sons. I could definitely use a great miracle.

    Thank all of you who are praying for me! I’m sure glad to hear that.

    Like

  13. Just saw all that about the court etc. Sharkly. I’m so sorry. Definitely praying for you and your situation.

    From what I’ve seen from all the other men out there who have been through this same scenario, it often looks and gets a lot worse before you start to see the, “better.” Even taking a year or more of time… definitely brace yourself to hold strong to God and not let go.

    Liked by 1 person

  14. OT

    Pastor Foster getting attacked from all sides for warning young men to proceed with caution before marrying single moms. TradCons, Churchians, feminists, single moms, children of single moms, widows, single dads all piling on him. He even took care to specify that widows are not the single moms he is warning about. I am not happy about him being attacked, although some of his material is weak, he is trying to help Christian men be more masculine and wise.

    Michael Foster
    @thisisfoster
    This is a baffling one.

    Does this man think his ex-wife, a single mother, is good marriage material? Clearly not.

    She is woman to approach with caution.

    The point isn’t that all single parents are bad.
    The point is that it’s something that needs explaining before making vows.
    Quote Tweet

    Kurt Michaels
    @DatOtherMichael
    · 21h
    Replying to @thisisfoster
    I’m a strong, Christian, single dad. I’m raising a special needs son. I got in this position because my wife of 31 years left because “Jesus told her to.” If a woman dates me, is she also naive? Or is this just one of those “loose women bad” scenarios?
    3:35 PM · Feb 4, 2020·Twitter Web App
    2
    Retweets
    53
    Likes

    Liked by 1 person

  15. I agree we should support Michael Foster in those things we can agree about, but unfortunately, I don’t do Facebook, Twitter, or any other networking besides this. Some of the simple things Michael is arguing for, was basic church boilerplate just twenty years ago, and his opposition would have been run out of almost all churches for their heresy when I was a child.

    I’d still like to see he and Bnonn figure out 1 Corinthians 11:7, that men alone are the image and glory of God. Then it makes it so much clearer why Satan is always after the man and trying to make women defile, denigrate and usurp the image of God.(men) Bnonn & Foster talk against “androgynism”, but then make God androgynous or a hermaphrodite, by repeating Satan’s blasphemous heresy that God is imaged by both men and the weaker vessel, made to be subject to men and to image the fickle church. Christ was 100% male, circumcised on the eighth day, and in Christ all the fullness of Deity dwelt bodily. There was no second-class female part or characteristic of God to exhibit.

    Michael Foster @thisisfoster · Feb 2
    Satan hates sex because he hates order and he especially hates men because they are essential to maintaining God’s created order.

    How much more right to say, Satan hates for women to reverence and serve the image of God as they were created to do, and for the image of Christ to reflexively love their wives as Christ loves the church. Christ loves the church how it is most appropriate, fitting to her fidelity.
    If society was taught that men alone are in the matchless image of the most high God, and that women are by default a second lesser class of human created to serve the greater, men to image God and His glory and women to be the glory of man, Feminism would have no basis for its deceitful usurping claim of equality, and things could be built upon Christ’s foundation. That worked for the Horny Housewives of the Patristic Age.

    Like

  16. i glanced at the link – good link. i stopped at his disclaimer: “Here’s a disclaimer. In this post, I am talking about single mothers by choice, and single mothers who initiated divorce. Widows are excluded.” (i’ll finish it later)

    and i totally agree with Foster for strongly encouraging men to really consider dating/marrying a single mom.

    and i’ve been there; done that … well, he left and divorced me/us in 2005 after 20 years of marriage. i didn’t want the divorce. i was a single mom for 4 years when i remarried my now-husband, and we’ve been married 10 years.

    first, and i cannot stress this enough … divorce sucks, continuously. still. it’s been almost fifteen years since he left, and i still hate divorce and what the divorce continues to do.

    second, and again, i cannot stress this enough, THE STEP PARENT IS NOT THE PARENT. and will never be the parent. ever. there will never be a relationship like the bio relationship. i’m not saying there can’t be good step parent/step child relationships; there can be. but if one expects a step parent to be *like* a ‘real’ parent, they’re disillusioned.

    even if the bio parent dies (my first husband died almost six years ago), the step parent is STILL the STEP parent. they will never be the ‘real’ parent. oddly enough, we know two other families who have kids who grew up with mine whose daddy’s also died young. both moms have remarried. good step dads … but they are still the step parent.

    even most adopted people want to know about their bio parents – my now-husband is adopted, and very recently he found his bio dad after searching for most of his adult life. (unfortunately, his bio dad has been deceased for some time, so he won’t get to meet him, but he now knows who he was). i am not against adoption; i am very much for adoption. but you need to know the reality … people want to know where their genetics came from.

    if there’s a choice, a mother’s loyalty will likely sway to her kids. because they’re NOT *his* kids. because he is *not* the parent.

    blended families … kids alternating time with ex-parent … rules at two different houses … non-resident bio parent trumping resident step parent … and a whole lot of other ‘stuff.’

    i’ve seen it work, but you’d better know what you’re walking into. it’s definitely not for the faint of heart … or the heart with distorted vision or rose colored glasses.

    Like

  17. Sharkly,

    Thanks for the link. I had not seen that review. WK added some good info and gave a good summary.

    Foster was overly gracious on Twitter and gentle. At time he failed to hold Frame and got sidetracked. Even with all that he said on the Canon Call podcast that he has had several people call his church and ask for the church to fire him!

    Liked by 1 person

  18. Ame,

    “if there’s a choice, a mother’s loyalty will likely sway to her kids. because they’re NOT *his* kids. because he is *not* the parent.”

    I was good friends with a guy at church. He married a single mom with one child, a boy. They had a second child together. When the boy became a teen, mom accused husband of being too strict with the discipline of the children. She initiated a divorce for that flimsy reason!

    They both continued to attend the same church. She was still very welcomed.

    I was single at the time and hung out with the divorced man and his children a few times. I never saw any indication that he was harsh or abusive.

    Liked by 1 person

  19. Bee – first, i’m guessing your marriage is recent? if i’m correct, congratulations 🙂

    – – –

    this story does not surprise me at all.

    when my first husband sued me for custody, (because he could, just to be mean … took it all the way to court, the judge looked at the case, called the attny’s to the bench and then to his office where they were for what seemed to be a very long time … where his attny – who had walked into the courtroom late and strutted down the center in a ‘little black dress’ with spiked heels and her bottle blond hair all fixed on top of her head – said that the reasons for suing for custody were no longer in effect … meaning he did it just to be mean … ) anyway, in the midst of that, my attny said that these kinds of things often come down to not agreeing with parenting styles (he didn’t agree that our Aspie-Girl had any ‘thing’ but that it was all ‘in my head’ and b/c i was a ‘bad’ parent … but we had the best in their fields diagnose her, so he couldn’t stand up to ‘expert’ diagnoses and testimony in court – meaning he did it all just to be mean b/c he could).

    – – –

    also … blending a family is not for the faint of heart. regardless of how much you work at it, there will still be two sides – his and hers. there are extremely rare circumstances where this is less the case.

    in our blended family, we pretty much left parenting of our own children to their own parent. if he had an issue with my kids, he brought it to me – still does, and i dealt with it. his son lived with his mom not far from us, so he didn’t stay over at our house much as he liked his own bed in his own room at his mom’s house. we didn’t push that. there were *some* things i stepped in on with his son b/c he was at work, but there were also times that he told me to back off.

    but .. the truth is, as much as i love my step son, and i do, he is not mine. he has his own mom. and he’d rather be alone with his dad, or with his own parents together, than with me. and while my girls like him, i don’t think they are overly attached to him – meaning that, if he dies before i do, they’ll be sad but not devastated … and if i die first, they’ll likely eventually lose contact with him.

    so, we’ve accepted we’re sort of a ‘divided’ family. i choose not to get between him and his, and he chooses not to get between me and mine.

    i do believe different people have different relationships with their steps. but if the wife becomes unhappy with her husband, she will cause a divide, and kids are always used in a divide.

    there’s a lot more i could say to all that … but, the bottom line is … a step parent is NOT the parent. ever. steps can have a relationship, but it will never be the same. and if you were to force me to choose, i’d choose my kids over my husband without blinking and never look back … b/c he’s not their dad, and i’m their mom, and i’m all they’ve got.

    from a step kid’s pov, there are things that happen with the step parent that kids are not ‘tolerant’ of that they wouldn’t even think about if it were their real parent. there have been times when things have come up that my kids weren’t happy about … and when i asked them if it would be different if he were their dad, their whole countenance changed before they even thought to answer that yes, it would make all the difference in the world.

    Like

  20. some other thoughts on divorce and remarriage and blending a family …

    – i was told once, and it’s true … that no one will love those kids like their bio parents (not getting into adoption here).

    – the step will not have the history of ‘before.’ the step wasn’t there when they were born … when they took their first step … when they did _____ … and unless you want to erase those stories, when those stories come up, the step will not be a part of them.

    – the kid(s) are now thrust into two different worlds: Dad’s World and Mom’s World. This is different from Intact World – before divorce. even separation doesn’t have the same effect as divorce.

    – if both parents remarry, you now have 4 parents, 4 different parenting styles, 4 adults needing to have different styles of authority over each child, not to mention all the extended family that may or may not be involved.

    – if you look at life like a bank account, with deposits and withdrawals, the sheer extreme of the amount of the withdrawal of divorce is immeasurable because it’s not a one-time withdrawal – it’s a continuous withdrawal over the lifetime of every person involved, but especially the kids. a life-time. even if the step parent comes in and begins making deposits, there will still be extreme deficits in various accounts in their lives from the divorce, and some of those accounts may never come back up to zero.

    – so while a step parent can be all-that and more, it may not be enough … to make up for a bad parent (if, indeed, there is a ‘bad’ parent) … to make up for the loss and losses that continue … to make up for the pain … etc.

    – men thinking they can come into a single-mom’s world and ‘fix’ it for her and her kid(s) will be extremely disappointed when, at some point in the road, they wake up to discover life is full of many more problems than solutions, and there’s not a whole lot he can do to ‘fix’ any of it.

    – that single mom will fully and whole-heartedly believe, with every fiber and cell of her being, that the ‘right man’ WILL ‘fix’ everything, and she will convince him of this lie. she won’t yet know it’s a lie … but when she wakes up and discovers the truth, she will either make life a living hell for everyone, causing another divorce, live in misery, or suck it up and make the best of an imperfect situation. women are so devious and spiteful and manipulative and passive-aggressive that their ways of reacting to reality – if she isn’t fully embedded in God’s Word and desiring His Will over her own emotions, circumstances, and desires – will not be pretty. i’ve seen them become closet alcoholics, chain smokers, etc, just to mentally escape what they’ve come to hate – that their life is built on a lie, and there’s not a thing she can do about it now.

    i have no idea how all this would be different if the woman were a widow as i’ve not experienced that. i do know some widows who remarried and blended a family. i know one who married a divorced man, blended their families, and the two did an incredible job. i think they are rare.

    Like

  21. Ame says: “and if you were to force me to choose, i’d choose my kids over my husband without blinking and never look back”.

    I trust you already know that is wrong, and are praying for victory over your misplaced priorities. It is healthy for kids to know that they are not the focus of their parents marriage, but that God is the focus, of our lives, followed next by our spouse, before our children. If kids sense that they are more important to you than your husband, that may actually cause them feelings of insecurity, knowing that their home is built on an already compromised foundation of your own personal priorities over God’s divine mandate. I am saddened to hear you chose your children over your husband, and, no doubt, he senses it too.

    Liked by 1 person

  22. Sharkley – i hear you. and i agree with you.

    i am just stating the truth as it is.

    obviously, i debated whether or not to even share such a thing, but in light of men needing to know how it is marrying a woman with children from another man, i thought it needed to be said.

    and, perhaps, i should clarify choosing my kids over my husband. i’m talking about the extreme … that if my husband ever came to me and said, “You must choose between your children or me. Either I stay, and they leave. Or they leave and I stay.” i’d choose my children.

    this is not regarding everyday life. God, husband, kids.

    however, in the extreme … and that pastor is going to the extreme in speaking to men, instructing them to be very cautious and careful when considering a single mom b/c the marriages are difficult and often end in divorce … in the extreme that my husband would make me choose a hard line between the two, i would never abandon my children.

    i will also state that i would expect the same of him – that he would never abandon his children (all our kids are adults, but the same applies) … he would choose his kids over me.

    and this was something we knew going into the marriage, but we also knew we would never push it to that extreme.

    this extreme that i’m talking about implies this is a singular thing and not a multi-level, complex thing. for example, if we had a child who was tearing up our house, disrespecting either of us, etc, we’d both kick them out. my girls know that it’s a privilege to live here, and they can either treat both of us with respect and honor our rules, or they can walk out the door, and i don’t care what happens after that.

    but if my husband walked in one day, and out-of-the-blue, with no basis or reason, stated i had to choose between him or my kids – one stays, the other goes, i’d choose my kids. i’d expect him to do the same if i gave him the same ultimatum.

    i don’t know where all that falls biblically.

    and i’m not going to divorce him or create cause for him to divorce me … or make him wish he would divorce me by being disrespectful, unsubmissive, and a bitch. he is honored in our home. he is respected in our home. i submit to him. and i have a willing and cheerful attitude towards him. we expect all our kids to respect us, and they do.

    we know of couples who have blended a family where one has come in, out-of-the-blue, and given the ultimatum: me or your kids. neither of us can imagine doing that. we each know that our own children are incredibly valuable and important to each of us.

    does this explain it better?

    Like

  23. also, this was something we discussed extensively before marriage, especially given my Aspie-Girl and not knowing if, or when, she’ll be capable of living on her own.

    we came in as a package deal, and we stay as a package deal – both sides.

    Like

  24. i should probably also add that, if my daughters were to come to me and ask me to choose between my husband and them, i would choose my husband … and they know this. they know marriage is for life.

    is there ever a reason i’d pull I Corinthians 7 and leave? sure, if you want to go to that extreme. he wouldn’t ever do the things that would cause me to pull that card, but they’d be things like sexually abusing my daughters (or any kids), physically beating the crap out of us … the extreme. he would never do those things, though, so it’s not even something to think about. but since the pastor is dealing with extremes, and people *always* go to that extreme” when asking, “what if ..,” i thought i’d add it.

    i believe it was Snapper who once asked women, who are committed to their husbands and marriages, what it was that created that commitment in us. and, interestingly enough, we answered the same: it’s our commitment to Jesus Christ. i fear God more than man, and my love and desire God is higher than anything else, so, therefore, I obey God by staying married to my husband. i thought it fascinating that the same was echoed by at least one other woman who answered his question.

    in the extreme, if my husband forced me to choose between keeping either him and my kids, for no other reason than to force me to choose … that i could not have both a marriage relationship with him AND a relationship with my children, i would choose my kids, but i still would not divorce him. and, again, we did discuss this thoroughly before marriage and agreed to this on both sides going in.

    and, again, i cannot imagine either of us ever doing something like that.

    Like

  25. does this explain it better?

    That is all exactly as I assumed it was. While I’m glad that you share your reality, to warn naïve men who might wander into marrying a single mom with delusions of romance, I still maintain that what you have expressed, though real, and shared with the good intent to warn others, reveals that your relative commitment to your spouse and your children, is still out of alignment with God’s will, even though you both don’t ever intend to make a marriage ending issue out of it.

    Sirach 4:10 Be like a father to fatherless children, instead of a husband to their mother; Then you will be like a child of the Most High, and He will love you more than your own mother does.

    What you have is not ideal, and I think you both realize that. But if you were to submit yourselves fully to God, and prioritize your marriage according to all of God’s stated truth, you could pursue God’s ideal, and benefit from it, while having a firmer foundation and better testimony of obedience in all things. I envision things could be better between you and your husband if you were both willing to put the needs of the other first, even ahead of your own children. God and I are not wrong about that. Thank you for letting us know your reality, now please go fix it, to the glory of God, and your own benefit.

    Like

  26. “What you have is not ideal,”

    No truer words were ever spoken, and we both know that. The ideal would be to each still be married to our first spouse and our children never have had to experience divorce. But as neither of us made that choice, we choose now to do the best we can with what we’ve got.

    Liked by 1 person

  27. in the extreme, if my husband forced me to choose between keeping either him and my kids, for no other reason than to force me to choose
    Inherent in that statement is a second-guessing disrespect and lack of trust in your husband’s divinely appointed leadership, that his request might in fact be for everybody’s best, as God has given him the wisdom to see it.

    we choose now to do the best we can …
    But, you can still do better. Imagine being Abraham’s holy wife. Abraham is taking me to, who knows where, keeping us in a tent, he had a child with my maid, and I suspect he is now going to sacrifice my only son as a burnt offering. Lord Abraham still deserves my utmost trust and respect as God’s agent in my life! See, you’re still far behind holy Sarah. (1 Peter 3:1-6) I’m not saying that it is an easy way, or that many will find it, or that you can achieve perfection, but that you should continue to strive towards God’s righteousness and holiness.

    Like

  28. i am curious, Sharkley, in light of this discussion, where you stand on parents abandoning their children? not being mean or contrary; just curious.

    Like

  29. You’d have to define “abandoning”. In times past parents might first save themselves while some of their young children died, making the assumption that children raised without two parents might likely turn out to be a blight on society anyhow. They had more kids, infant mortality was high, and kids were considered more expendable and replaceable back then. All the child safety stuff we have today wasn’t required when I was little. If I got myself killed, the stork could replace me. I think the vow to the spouse comes above any supposed debt to the children. God surely has great grace for the innocents who die in childish ignorance. Not that we can’t take more care to preserve lives than our ancestors did. But, I’m just rambling now since I’m not really sure what you’re asking.

    Like

  30. good question.

    okay … here is an example pieced together from actual events … you have a young, special needs child, who is incapable of being alone and unsafe being alone. you are in public, and the child has a meltdown related to their special needs – their brain is misfiring and the child is unable to bring themselves under control without aid. the husband/(bio)father gets angry at the child and walks away, leaving the store and getting in his car, commanding the other to leave the young child alone in the store who is having a meltdown related to their special needs and who is mentally incapable of caring for their self or bringing their self under control, and the other person refuses to leave the child.

    would you expect the other person to abandon the child because the husband/father commanded them to?

    Like

  31. Ame,
    You’re kind of setting me up here to argue inside your own made-up composite scenario where you are free to add in more detail, and various abuses, as we go, so I guess I’ll kind of reframe things a bit. I don’t know anything about the specifics of your child’s condition, so there’s that. I guess I’ll just tell you a few things. I think you should have tried harder to work with your husband in this composite scenario. Be creative. Perhaps you could have suddenly given him the look, and then began kissing him hard, and grinding your pussy on his leg and whispered that you wanted to fuck him so bad, that you just want to grab the kid and get home. While your husband would probably have been slightly bewildered, he probably would have “gone with it” and followed your lead. After all, it is his duty to provide sex when his wife NEEDS it.

    If you never let your husband try his way, he will never know whether it would have worked or not. I was never allowed to discipline my kids as I saw fit, while my wife was in the house, or with us.(she would threaten to call the police on me, if I wanted to spank the boys) I always wonder how the kids would be if she had let me try things my way, and I will never know. If your husband’s way was doomed to fail, you should have tried to allow him to fail in such a way that he could see it, and you didn’t lose the child or your marriage either. Those sort of situations call for much prayer for wisdom and opportunity and meekness on your part. FWIW whenever my wife left the house, peace descended upon the rest of us, and the boys behaved far better as though all the evil and contention had gone out the door with my wife. I wonder sometimes why women seem so inept at using their womanly charms on their husbands? If my wife had been halfway kind to me, I’d give her the world. But the nasty bitch wanted to be in a constant fight and has kept our marriage a constant fight since it began. If she wasn’t an intimacy-anorexic fool she could have had a great marriage and life, all she had to do was permit me to be the great husband I wanted to be. Maybe your first husband wasn’t like me, but most men, generally speaking, would make great husbands and fathers if they had a supportive wife backing them.

    Like

  32. Sharkley – as i’m awake since my husband got called out, and i saw the notification come thru on my phone, i’ll go ahead and answer.

    i didn’t think i was setting you up, so i’m sorry it looks that way.

    this scenario happened exactly as i wrote … quite a few years after the divorce. the other person was our Oldest daughter … who was still a kid herself … who knows her sister well enough to know her brain had disconnected, and she was unsafe alone in a store, by herself, having an autistic meltdown. she refused to leave her sister.

    i’ve never claimed to be a perfect wife though God knows it was my passion to be the best, most biblical wife i could be. and i mean, my passion. we married young, i was thin, in great shape, and had men hitting on me often enough to know i was attractive, yet he didn’t want sex with me hardly ever. and i did try many things in that department, which i will not list publicly … however, the man i’m married to now says he was an idiot. so your suggestion would not have worked on him … actually, doing things like that had the reverse effect – they made him incessantly angry.

    i dressed for him, i kept the house for him the way he liked it, i cooked for him the way he liked it, i catered to him and his desires and his likes and dislikes, as i learned from reading and studying marriage and how to be a good wife. i prayed fervently for him, so much so that i was told if anyone could lead their husband to God thru prayer, it was me. i sacrificed for him. and i did it all willingly and with a good attitude b/c i was his wife, and i was to follow him. also, he’s the one who got my virginity, and he knew that – he broke my hymen. our Oldest looks just like him, and our youngest looks like both his family and mine, so he never could have any doubt that i was ever unfaithful to him.

    he actually was a sex addict, and by the time i figured it all out, and he confessed to me, he was well into sleeping with prostitutes. he began that part when i was pregnant with our second, and while i knew something in him had changed as he became very evil, i didn’t know what it was till 3 years later. also, we did not have kids until he was ready – it was his choice both times. we were married 11 and 13 years when our babies were born.

    i found a biblical, experienced therapist after i found out what he was into. the first counselor i tried immediately determined we were getting a divorce. i ditched her. this man was for marriage and for my marriage. he worked my butt off for two and a half years, doing every thing i could to save my marriage.

    in the end … he walked in one day, pulled out two copies of a divorce decree he had already been working on, handed me a pen, and said let’s go over this. i did not want the divorce, i did not want a broken family. he knew that.

    the event listed in the previous comment started a terrible spiral where he turned on his own children. he told our Oldest to her face, “I don’t like you. I don’t want you. Call your Mom to come get you.” then he did the same thing two weeks later. she was a Daddy’s girl. it broke her. literally. she’s had numerous neurological and medical complications since. a few months later he did the same thing to our youngest.

    our youngest is autistic, adhd, bipolar, sensory, full-gut issues – had continuous gut pain all her life until this past year, and a few other things. all of these were diagnosed by the best, some were world-renown, in their fields, and have been confirmed repeatedly. the only change being bipolar has been changed to ‘mood disorder.’

    he walked out, abandoned me and our kids physically. then, years later, he emotionally and mentally and verbally abandoned them.

    then, he died unexpectedly and suddenly.

    i.will.not.abandon.my.children.
    ever.

    my parents emotionally and physically abandoned me. their dad abandoned them. both his parents and mine abandoned us. and i will not. ever. abandon my children.

    my Oldest is working hard through her neurological and medical challenges to be able to live on her own one day. my Aspie-Girl is a long way away from being ‘safe’ alone. she is very much *not* safe on her own. i.will.never.abandon.my.children.

    – – –

    Imagine being Abraham’s holy wife. Abraham is taking me to, who knows where, keeping us in a tent, he had a child with my maid, and I suspect he is now going to sacrifice my only son as a burnt offering.

    God did ask for my children, and i gave them to Him. i had prayed and prayed that God could have anything except hurting my children. one day, i finally gave them to Him. and God did not provide a lamb to replace them. their hearts were sacrificed on the alter of their dad’s crazy. the pictures of our Oldest before and after he told them of the divorce are striking. it.broke.her. i mean, it literally broke her. i knew it would, and i could not stop it. i begged and pleaded with God to stop it, willing to risk anything to protect our girls. but God did not stop it. He allowed it. and i have spent every day since helping them heal their broken hearts and souls as God has allowed and led.

    – – –

    i know your situation is tragic. and i know our culture has degraded to treat men terribly beyond comprehension. but there are *some* men out there who are doing bad things, who have done bad things, similar to what your wife is doing. men who are hurting and wounding and abandoning those who love them and want to hold onto them. after my dad and husband, i was terrified of men. finally my therapist said to me, “Ame, he is one man; he is not all men.” and i got it. and while there are many more like your wife, not all women are. i’m not advocating you ever trusting another woman; i’m just stating truth.

    may God have mercy on you and your children.may He protect your children from all forms of evil, protecting their minds and souls and keeping them for Him. may He truly restore what the locusts have greedily and menacingly devoured, and may we truly see the goodness of the Lord in the land of the living.

    Liked by 1 person

  33. Ame,
    Have you ever looked at the symptoms of intimacy anorexia to see if it fit with your first husband’s behavior? It is quite prevalent in sex addicts and about two thirds of intimacy anorexics are men. I just thought I’d ask in case you never looked into it. When you said that your sex-addict husband didn’t want sex with you, that possible diagnosis popped into my thoughts, since I have unfortunately come to know a lot about it.

    Liked by 1 person

  34. from your wikipedia link: Intimacy anorexia is a relationship disorder that occurs mostly in the context of marriage or long-term romantic partnerships. This relationship disorder is defined by the American Association for Sex Addiction Therapy as “The active withholding of emotional, spiritual and sexual intimacy from the spouse or partner.”[1]

    that definitely describes him. Bloom said once a few years ago that it sounded like he had “Madonna-Whore Complex,” so the more good i became, the more he despised me – which was also true. i didn’t realize it at the time, but the more i worked on being like Christ, the more he despised me.

    it’s hard to boil down a twenty-year marriage … so much in there. my girls and i have come to the conclusion his life was a tragedy. we’ve committed to being honest about who he was and who he wasn’t … we tell the truth. they have both forgiven him – took many years (it’s almost six years since he died). we talk about him often, and i try to remember as many good things about him as possible to add to their list of good memories. he left them with more bad memories than good ones, so i’m always looking to add to the good for them.

    and, like your wife, he had access to the best help available but ditched it all. he refused to work on his own stuff, continuously blaming me for all his problems. his parents (retired, career, missionaries) had come to hate me b/c his dad couldn’t control me. and i mean … they rival the trump haters, kind of hate they have for me. they’ve done despicable and evil things. i have stood in their way from hurting our girls – i call myself their ‘storm wall.’ some gets thru, but not much. their dad had set his parents and (also evil) brother as beneficiaries of all his monies, which was substantial. our girls got nothing. a few years ago they started giving them morsels from their dad’s estate. sick people.

    that day i gave God my girls, i also gave Him my financial security. my husband had begun making very good money, and it was the first time in my life i had any kind of extra or substantial money. God took both; there was no lamb waiting as a replacement for either.

    yet, i choose to trust Him. at the end of the day, God is all i have.

    Philippians 4:12-13 New King James Version (NKJV)
    12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. 13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

    Like

  35. Ame – I can relate to so much of what you just said. Not all of it – but a lot.
    Sometimes it’s just so, so hard. I’m trying to remind myself that God is enough, but even that is hard sometimes.

    Sharkly – I am sorry to hear your battle is not getting any easier. I often wonder why God takes us so low. I guess one day it will be apparent, but sometimes it’s so easy to lose sight of the Kingdom. Or it is for me, anyway. I’m certain that life would be so much easier if we caved in and did what the world does.

    Liked by 2 people

  36. Ame – I can relate to so much of what you just said. Not all of it – but a lot.
    Sometimes it’s just so, so hard. I’m trying to remind myself that God is enough, but even that is hard sometimes.

    i know.

    there are some things that will help:

    1. Pray continuously. about everything.
    2. never miss a day reading your bible, even if it’s only one verse.
    3. journal if it’s safe to do so.
    4. write out the bible verse(s) that leap out at you each day.
    5. ask God to send you a prayer support group – a group you keep in contact with regularly, who will pray for you and hold you accountable. this group must only be women, for a woman, and men for a man. the only exceptions would be something like the 80 year old deacon who prays for everyone … or the 80 year old lady who prays for everyone.
    6. make ephesians 4:31-32 your continuous prayer … memorize it and pray that God would enable you to do these that he requires. pray it continuously, multiple times a day:
    Ephesians 4:31-32 New International Version (NIV)
    31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

    7. memorize and pray continuously psalm 51:12: New International Version
    Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me.

    8. forgive yourself.
    9. learn to discern between Truth and lie, and discipline yourself to choose to believe the Truth regardless of how you feel or your circumstances or anything else.
    10. sing praise songs – God inhabits the praises of His children … singing praises to Him is powerful.

    Liked by 1 person

  37. I still believe remarriage after divorce is wrong, although it seems most churches don’t blink an eye in happily endorsing it.

    1 Co 7:10-11
    To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

    A command of the Lord.

    Liked by 1 person

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s