Shaming: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

Shame Beagle

Twere shame enough to shame thee, wert thou not shameless. ~ William Shakespeare

Shame (Noun) a painful emotion resulting from an awareness of having done something wrong, dishonorable, improper, unworthy, degrading, ridiculous, etc.
Shame (verb) To cause to feel shame.

Joseph Burgo Ph.D. said: Although many people use the two words “guilt” and “shame” interchangeably, from a psychological perspective, they actually refer to different experiences. … [Shame] reflects how we feel about ourselves and [guilt] involves awareness that our actions have injured someone else. … In other words, shame relates to self; guilt to others. I think it’s useful to preserve this distinction, even though the dictionary definitions often blur it. … Many people crippled by shame have very little capacity to feel guilt, for example. In order to feel guilt about the harm you may have done to somebody else, you must recognize him or her as a distinct individual, to begin with. Thus a person who struggles with separation and merger issues might not feel true guilt even if he or she were to use that word to describe a feeling. Many people who display narcissistic behavior often suffer from profound feelings of shame but have little authentic concern for other people; they don’t tend to feel genuinely guilty. The lack of empathy to be found in narcissistic personality disorder makes real guilt unlikely since guilt depends upon the ability to intuit how someone else might feel.

Neel Burton M.D. said: Embarrassment is the feeling of discomfort experienced when some aspect of ourselves is, or threatens to be, witnessed by or otherwise revealed to others, and we think that this revelation is likely to undermine the image of ourselves that we seek to project to those others. …

People with low self-esteem are more prone to shame, because, having a poor self-image, they are harsher upon themselves. In some cases, they may defend against shame with blame or contempt, often for the person who incited their shame. Ultimately, this is likely to lead to even deeper shame, and so to even lower self-esteem. While overwhelming shame can be destructive, mild or moderate shame is mostly a force for good, spurring us on to lead more ethical lives. …

Shame is ego dystonic, that is, in conflict with our self-image and the needs and goals of our ego, and high levels of shame are correlated with poor psychological functioning. In particular, eating disorders and many sexual disorders can largely be understood as disorders of shame, as can narcissism, which is sometimes thought of as a defense against shame. Guilt on the other hand is ego syntonic, that is, consistent with our self-image and the needs and goals of our ego, and, unless left to fester, is either unrelated or inversely correlated with poor psychological functioning.

Faced with the same set of circumstances, people with high self-esteem are more prone to guilt than to shame, and more likely to take corrective or redemptive action.

Sharkly B.S. says:  Recently I have kept running into the concept of shaming.  Most people seem to be very against shaming being done to them, but are quite ready to do it to their opponents.  Some people are against shaming entirely and seem to go to great lengths to shame those who are still shaming. 😉

But, does shaming have a positive purpose, and if so, why do some claim to be opposed to it?  One person claimed that shaming should not be used because it might drive someone “underground” or back in “the closet”.   However that might indeed be a very powerful reason to use it.

Are we ever to shame the wayward, or are we only to humor them?  Can you shame a person’s deeds without devaluing the person?  It has been said that if you attack someone’s due dignity, your relationship will suffer.  Is there a way to shame people without attacking their human dignity?  Should we even slave to keep close relations with the shameless?  Should our relationships be subject to some basic level of expectation?  Or is it imperative that everybody be nice, polite, and unconfrontational?  I hope, with this post, to spur contemplation of shaming, and to start a discussion on the appropriate and best uses of shaming.

It would seem obvious that if society is to be peacefully reformed, we will absolutely need shame, as a force for good, spurring us on to lead more ethical lives.  And even if you favor a violent revolution, won’t you still need shame to peaceably maintain your mores after you’ve installed them via gun barrel diplomacy?  What would a chaotic world without shame even look like, where everybody did what was right in their own eyes?

46 thoughts on “Shaming: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

  1. I’m not really into “shame” or “shaming”. Trying to manipulate the emotions of others for our own purposes doesn’t sound like a good thing to me; besides I don’t think the cohorts of self-esteem champions that were raised in the last couple of decades are going to respond to those kinds of tactics. What we really need is a lot less emotion and a lot more logic and evidence-based practice. People need to be taught that their actions have consequences, either good or bad, and that they are responsible for those consequences and they need to be made to enjoy or suffer those consequences.

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  2. In reading through Pilgrim’s Progress with our oldest last year, we had some of the best discussions about shame, sin, and learned from the characters how it actually HELPS people change for the better. But that book is very old… people responded to shame and self-reflection better, and took responsibility for their own choices more I think. Now it’s just popular to blame, “bad circumstances,” for our choices to be bored, unhappy or engage in sin.

    That book was an eye-opener though, if only for the heavy weight the author placed on shame being a good catalyst in a person’s life

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  3. Oh and Sharkly! I totally thought of you when I’ve been reading the 2nd Pilgrim’s Progress book, where the author focuses on the wife’s journey with the 4 sons.

    She is so full of shame in how she treated her husband, and it’s extremely beautiful to read and see how it influences her next decisions to be a better Christian woman and mother. We read her getting into it with neighborhood women who try to discourage her from feeling that way, or place blame on her husband… and she passes all those tests.

    And she also admits this shame to her 4 sons in how sorry she is for having treated their father that way and literally driving him away from them and causing the separation by not following him on his spiritual journey in the first place.

    It’s just so cool and such a foreign concept to people in the current day, how important it is to feel shame. And the effects it has on others who witness it.

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  4. Shame (Noun) a painful emotion resulting from an awareness of having done something wrong, dishonorable, improper, unworthy, degrading, ridiculous, etc.

    What I especially note in that definition is that the emotion starts with realizing one has failed in some fashion. In other words, one cannot be shamed unless one has done something wrong. Which means saying “Don’t shame me” is technically a tacit admission that one’s behavior is a problem.

    However, I don’t believe that is what they mean. In fact, they understand shame incorrectly. It seems to me that “Don’t shame me!” is a new variation of “Don’t judge me!”, which could be more accurately expressed as “I should be able to do whatever I want whenever I want, and it’s nobody else’s business!”

    The other important related concept is that each individual is responsible for their own emotions. For example, I cannot make you sad by what I do. You choose to be sad.

    I know that the reader’s first response is likely to disagree with this, thinking the sad person would be correct to say “I wouldn’t be sad if you hadn’t reminded me of my loss.” However, it’s not true even when our emotion is involuntary or “automatic”. In this situation, we have defaulted to a habit of behavior (which is certainly common for all of us).

    While “automatic” behavior, including our emotional response, is common (and generally helpful in life), it is still a choice. I think most of us realize that saying “I’m sorry” when we bump into someone is a learned behavior. I believe the same is true for experiencing sadness when learning about the death of someone close.

    Thus, a person who feels shame when reminded, directly or indirectly, of their failure should be grateful for the opportunity to make amends and move forward, instead of demonstrating their selfishness. As you wrote:

    It would seem obvious that if society is to be peacefully reformed, we will absolutely need shame, as a force for good, spurring us on to lead more ethical lives.

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  5. Shame on a widespread, community level is effective. Look how smoking has been shamed and is now greatly reduced. People who do not recycle or embrace Climate Change are shamed. Couples with lots of children are shamed by strangers. I think they should not be shamed, but I am in the minority.

    The Anit-Bullying movement in our public schools is a shame based movement that shames those we disapprove of students who choose to be homosexuals or transsexuals. The Anit-Bully crowd claims to be against bullying but shame those who disagree with them. “Shame for you, but not for me.”

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  6. I’m seeing shaming of people play out on social media right now with coronavirus and the selfish, intentional actions of those who are bringing it in to our country. Purely from a psychological standpoint, it’s interesting. The whole idea of shaming people (one tourist in particular whose photo has been plastered all over social media) appears to be as a type of revenge, and with the purpose of ensuring nobody else follows in this man’s footsteps.
    From a social shaming perspective, the media have a lot to answer for.

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  7. “But that book is very old… people responded to shame and self-reflection better, and took responsibility for their own choices more I think. Now it’s just popular to blame, “bad circumstances,” for our choices to be bored, unhappy or engage in sin.”

    ^^Just to be clear, I meant this in an, “Eat Pray Love,” kind of way concerning the women who use those things as an excuse to divorce (Dalrock’s “frivorce” due to not being haaaapppy).

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  8. What would a chaotic world without shame even look like, where everybody did what was right in their own eyes?

    Perhaps some will respond that I think this way due to ignorance of anarchy… But I think that a culture without a central government that forced its views on everyone else, at threat of being jailed or shot by the police, would be better than what we have now. Surely, there would be problems.
    But without the central government, there would be no:
    – theft via taxation to support the feminist destruction of our families
    – state-sponsored murder of children (Molech/abortion)
    – theft to support the K-12 school system, which
    – gives bad morals
    – encourages women to wait at least 18 to marry
    – encourages women to go to university and delay marriage even more
    – drugs many boys
    – wastes time that would be far better spend on family or jobs
    – state-sponsored injustice through Satanic laws
    – state-sponsored kidnapping, followed by monthly theft of money, from fathers with unhappy wives via the “family” courts

    Just consider murders. Do you really think there would be more murders in anarchy, than there are abortions today, if every home had a man with a gun in it who would do as he saw fit to protect his family? Maybe it would be worse…. Anyone smarter (or more arrogant 🙂 ) than I who wants to offer an opinion? Or example from history?

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  9. JPF – Is there any examples from history where there was not a central government making rules? I mean, even tribal cultures (and I’m thinking of the Maori culture specifically, as it’s what I know) had customary laws, and leaders. The difference was, wealth was owned by the tribe as a whole instead of by individuals, so there wasn’t the selfishness we see today. Otherwise, I’m not sure it was that different. The laws themselves may be different, but there were still laws, and consequences when these laws were not upheld.

    I can’t remember the verse or the exact wording, but isn’t there something in the Bible that speaks of laws or rules being made for the righteous? I have always figured that to mean that the good people are going to do what’s right anyway, and the bad people aren’t, but the laws give the good people the legal means to try to rein in the bad people.
    The Bible says “Thou shalt not murder.” I don’t remember reading a qualifier for that – murder is murder. Which means, a man doing what he believes to be right, killing someone while protecting his family, is a murderer, therefore a sinner.

    You know the saying: “Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.” So my fear would be, in the case of no central government, that the person with the biggest gun, or the most money so can buy the best protection etc. will be in power, and they will be corrupt. And they will enforce their will on people, because they can. If it was GOOD people with the biggest gun etc. would be one thing. But it won’t be, necessarily.
    I’m not sure that living in anarchy would be a good way to live.

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  10. Sorry Sharkly, this comment is completely off-topic, but I’m interested in the perspective of some of the wise Christian people on here. (Non-Christian opinions aren’t going to help me much.)
    The whole concept of shaming got me thinking about it.

    On another blog, a (single, childless) man and a (young, single, childless) woman both attempted to shame me (wrong choice of words perhaps, as per the definitions above – perhaps “correct” would be a better word) for having a tubal ligation at the request of my husband, after our 4th baby was born 7 years ago. I should add, my husband did not force me to have this surgery, but he made it clear our family was complete, and I can’t use hormonal contraceptives because they interfere with my Tourette’s.

    These people I am talking about have been quite vocal in the past, on that same blog, on this topic.

    The man told me I was in sin for preventing any more children, mainly for financial reasons, despite my husband not wanting any more children. I got the impression he absolutely believed I should be going against my husband’s wishes and having as many children as I possibly can. He told me that if my husband is battling addictions he should not be in the home and I should leave him.
    Yet on this blog, we have men who are being destroyed by the court system etc. We all know the impact separation has on children. And my oldest children are teenagers – my son is 16 – they all need their father.
    I can understand this man giving this advice to a woman who is in physical danger. But in the same comment, he said he was skeptical of my claims that my husband is emotionally and verbally abusive, and has narcissistic personality disorder (he has had a formal diagnosis by a doctor) because women just claim these things when they don’t get their own way.

    So how does this all work?
    If a Christian woman is prepared to endure the verbal and emotional abuse for the sake of her children, and is endeavouring to follow 1 Peter 3, shouldn’t all Christians, both men and women, being encouraging her to do so, not telling her to leave until her husband “fixes” himself?
    Why would a Christian (male or female) be telling a woman she is sinning by preventing any more pregnancies (using non-abortive means) when her husband does not want any more children, and the family does not have the means to care for any more children than the 4 they already have?

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  11. There are some things I’d like to respond to, but I have to go to bed, I’ve got to be in court twice tomorrow; regarding my divorce, and also regarding foreclosure against my inheritance, and then I have to go work a full nightshift at my job. I’m currently training transferred QA people, while singlehandedly battling the forces of mediocrity with a completely untrained team, to keep air travel safe. Please pray for me.

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  12. Ace said –

    “The man told me I was in sin for preventing any more children, mainly for financial reasons, despite my husband not wanting any more children. I got the impression he absolutely believed I should be going against my husband’s wishes and having as many children as I possibly can.”

    ^This sounds like the classic Catholic response… I responded to this very same question that was asked to The Thinking Housewife blogger, where she responded in the same way those people did to you.

    My response was here, but I think you’ve already read it maybe?
    https://girlwithadragonflytattoo.com/2018/06/12/when-you-want-more-kids-but-your-husband-doesnt/

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  13. Ace – there is a whole ‘movement’ where they believe we are biblically mandated to have as many children as we can produce, to never abstain from sex except when the woman is on her period or for an agreed upon time of fasting and prayer, and to never use any form of birth control including the rhythm method. these people would even recommend praying before every time a couple has sex that if they are to conceive, they will. The Quiverful Movement is this way. i’m sure there are others. they would believe their position takes precedent over the husband’s authority in the home.

    two thoughts:

    1.my take on limiting the number of children a couple has/birth control: if God didn’t want us to ever have any control on when we got pregnant, He wouldn’t give us the knowledge of the female body and cycle to be able to do so. birth control has been around for ages … long before the pill. people knew how to prevent pregnancy.

    there are some of us who are not made for lots of children. i know i’m one of them. i’d be certifiable if i had unlimited children. IF i had had a different husband the first time, IF i had had a loving family with great family support, that might all have been different.

    i do not think i sinned by only having two children or by only wanting two children (actually, i only wanted one; God gave me a bonus!), or by knowing that i am not capable of handling multiple children. i’ve often said my plate is full – it’s a smaller plate than many, but it’s mine, and i know when it’s full.

    my take on who has authority of the number of children a couple has: the Husband is the final authority in the home. the wife is to respect and honor and obey her Husband. even your situation is an example of the wife obeying her husband. this group is another example of the church trying to usurp the position of the husband in the home.

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  14. Sharkly – whatever happens today, may you never waver in knowing God IS. God truly is in control. God will never leave you or your sons, and He will never forsake you or your sons.

    If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
    If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. Psalm 139:8

    Psalm 42:
    As the deer pants for the water brooks,
    So pants my soul for You, O God.
    2 My soul thirsts for God, for the living God.
    When shall I come and appear before God?
    3 My tears have been my food day and night,
    While they continually say to me,
    “Where is your God?”

    4 When I remember these things,
    I pour out my soul within me.
    For I used to go with the multitude;
    I went with them to the house of God,
    With the voice of joy and praise,
    With a multitude that kept a pilgrim feast.

    5 Why are you cast down, O my soul?
    And why are you disquieted within me?
    Hope in God, for I shall yet praise Him
    For the help of His countenance.

    6 O my God, my soul is cast down within me;
    Therefore I will remember You from the land of the Jordan,
    And from the heights of Hermon,
    From the Hill Mizar.
    7 Deep calls unto deep at the noise of Your waterfalls;
    All Your waves and billows have gone over me.
    8 The Lord will command His lovingkindness in the daytime,
    And in the night His song shall be with me—
    A prayer to the God of my life.

    9 I will say to God my Rock,
    “Why have You forgotten me?
    Why do I go mourning because of the oppression of the enemy?”
    10 As with a breaking of my bones,
    My enemies reproach me,
    While they say to me all day long,
    “Where is your God?”

    11 Why are you cast down, O my soul?
    And why are you disquieted within me?
    Hope in God;
    For I shall yet praise Him,
    The help of my countenance and my God.

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  15. I just don’t understand how those groups or religions can place so much value on a husband’s leadership role, and then turn around and undermine him in one of the most important facets of a marriage (sex and how many children he wants to have). It just doesn’t make sense to me.

    But I think I remember you saying it happened on Lori’s blog, right? I think sometimes she falls into the same trap that man-made religious rules can do, where they limit a husband’s own authority over his household – to the point where they don’t even allow him the authority to decide how many kids he wants (or can) provide for.

    To me, that’s all very strange and makes no sense biblically, but when you deal with people who are sinful (as we all are) there’s going to be a lot of legalism showing up in different ways that isn’t appropriate.

    I’ve always wondered at how Dalrock would fearlessly reveal how the Protestant churches would routinely do this to husbands in a myriad of minor ways – taking away their ability to lead with authority, but then he’d consistently stay far far away from how the Catholic church does this with the major issues – even to the point of encouraging wives to cause a wedge in their marriage over the birth control issue (to get a husband to come under her leadership). I don’t understand why he didn’t go after them more, except for not wanting to offend the Catholics who read there.

    But then you have the fairly popular Catholic blogger, The Thinking Housewife, instructing women to literally threaten their husbands with the end of their marital happiness if they don’t bend to the wife’s will and have no limits on the amount of kids he’ll have to provide for. Talk about a way to make a husband resentful!

    Ame’s advice is simple and profound ❤ just follow your husband's lead and ignore what doesn't apply to you and your family.

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  16. Brother Sharkly:

    I’ll be keeping you in my thoughts. Occasionally, I hear about a divorce court judge who bucks the trend, and renders up some unusually wise decision. I shall continue to hope this happens for you.

    Remember that regardless of the outcome, you are a man, and as such, you will continue to thrive despite all the best efforts of the feminists to crush you underfoot.

    Love & Respect,

    Boxer

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  17. Ace I think you already knew what was right to be honest ❤️.

    I love Lori and agree with her on probably 98% of what she writes, I really like The Thinking Housewife, too, but my situation is the exact same as yours (tubal ligation after 4th baby because husband is adamant four is his limit). With this last birth and how rushed and emergency like it all was, it’s obvious he’s right! He’s making the best decision for me as well health-wise .. the risk is getting too dangerous to have more.

    You sound like you’ve already accepted it and all .. no need to worry about or argue with men or women who have zero investment in your real life.

    I’m just so grateful for the children we do have 🙏💗. A Dr told me when I was in our first year or two of marriage that I’d probably be infertile, so each baby has been such a gift and miracle anyway and has left me overjoyed we made it to our goal of four! You sound like you appreciate all you have, too.

    Sometimes I think Lori’s response or the Catholic Church’s stance can make women feel entitled to covet something they see other women have… To covet more children their husbands don’t feel comfortable allowing them to have. I know that’s kind of abstract, but the Bible does put a lot of emphasis on “godliness with contentment is great gain.” You sound content even if it has been hard to accept at times ❤️

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  18. Stephanie – Thank you. I think you’re right – I *do* know in my heart what’s right, but because my husband currently isn’t following Christ, I do worry sometimes, and when others are so earnest in their beliefs, I get confused. Obviously I want to do what is right, but learning that there is entire movements out there that I had no idea about, helps me understand a bit better. I was wondering how on earth we could follow the same Bible but have completely different understandings of it.

    I’m glad your 4th baby arrived safely 😀 My 4th baby was very fast too.

    Sharkly – I hope things went well for you today.

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  19. OKRickety says: “Don’t shame me!” is a new variation of “Don’t judge me!”
    I agree.

    Bee says: Shame on a widespread, community level is effective.
    I agree.

    Ace says: The Bible says “Thou shalt not murder.” I don’t remember reading a qualifier for that – murder is murder. Which means, a man doing what he believes to be right, killing someone while protecting his family, is a murderer, therefore a sinner.
    Actually there are justified killings and then there are the unjustified ones we call murder. In the Bible the punishment for some sins was to be killed. Those who carried out the sentence were not murderers, nor were Israel’s armies. A person defending their family is much like a military force protecting their nation.

    Ace Says: On another blog, a (single, childless) man and a (young, single, childless) woman both attempted to shame me (wrong choice of words perhaps, as per the definitions above – perhaps “correct” would be a better word) for having a tubal ligation…
    You have previously admitted you like pushing people’s buttons. When you go to a site where they don’t even approve of any temporary contraceptive methods, and you tell them you went and got permanent contraception, you can expect to encounter backlash. Yes, they were likely trying to shame you. I suspect you brought it on. No, I’m not feeling much sympathy stirring for you, even though I myself have exercised liberty in using contraceptive methods.

    I obviously disagree with the catholic churches doctrine that only sex intended to make a baby is sanctified. I think that an agreement between a man and a woman to be wed, followed by sex, initiates a marriage, and that God unites the two into one flesh. Marriage sanctifies the sex within it. The marriage bed is holy, not foul, and is to be kept holy. Sex within marriage is not some evil that is somehow outweighed by God’s desire for us to be fruitful and multiply. Although sex with a woman defiles a man who is a virgin,(Revelation 14:4) He was also born defiled, and has no doubt subjected himself to other defilements as well. The Bible gives no indication that further sex beyond that required to consummate marriage, would further defile a man, but on the contrary 1 Corinthians 7:2-5 indicates that further sex prevents some temptation to commit sin by both. There is no mention that a woman gets defiled by uniting in marriage through sex with the image of God. However, she will be distracted from serving God directly, by her duty to serve God indirectly through serving His image. 1 Corinthians 7:2-5 is a truly rare Bible passage where a husband is required to meet his wife’s requests.(for sex) I’m surprised more women don’t avail themselves of the right to constantly drain her husband’s balls to where he has no further desire for sex. They must not truly believe that they are actually uniting with the very image of God, like the horny housewives of the patristic age believed. Back When the patristic fathers described wives as more insatiably prone to demanding those sensual pleasures.

    My divorce thing in court was a status conference. The cunt-court judge said, that after 26 months, my wife could no longer drag things out claiming to be seeking to reconcile. In about seven weeks on May 6th, we will have a pre-trial conference at which point my wife will either have to drop the divorce or proceed to trial. In all this time of “trying to reconcile” my wife has refused to ever allow any joint counselling or joint mediation, and has been abusing me, and the boys too, via the legal system. My wife’s lawyer(a super nasty woman) claimed my wife was planning on proceeding to trial if we had not reconciled. And that won’t happen unless my wife allows it to. My wife remains in full control of whether she ever wants to actually have a marriage. I am required by law to continue providing her with all that my marriage vow has been construed to entail, while she returns me absolutely nothing of what she had vowed. She really is an unrepentant whore on her way to hell, and is being cheered on by the synagogue of Satan, the great whore, her churchian congregation of cunt-worshippers. The Lord’s will be done. While I’d like to see a miracle and have her repent of her wicked behavioral addiction and quit blaspheming the word of God through her life and our unequally yoked marriage, I have resigned myself to suffering all this evil for my Lord Jesus Christ, who suffered and died for me. But, it breaks my heart to see her breaking our sons, and destroying their lives, and having TV and videogames used as a substitute for their other parent. The selfishness of her addiction is amazing to me. I shudder to think of the agonizing regret and anguish she will have in eternal torment, having so oppressed the innocent and ignored all calls for her to do justly. Please continue pray for me and my sons, and for my wife’s repentance.

    Don’t marry a whore! Most aren’t truly repentant. They take it in, wipe off their opening and then say they have done no wrong.(Proverbs 30:20)

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  20. I guess, based upon the definitions given in the original post, we actually should be shooting for inducing guilt in others, when they are hurting God and others by their sins, as opposed to causing them to feel ashamed of who they are.
    People with low self-esteem are more prone to shame, because, having a poor self-image, they are harsher upon themselves. In some cases, they may defend against shame with blame or contempt, often for the person who incited their shame. Ultimately, this is likely to lead to even deeper shame, and so to even lower self-esteem. … Faced with the same set of circumstances, people with high self-esteem are more prone to guilt than to shame, and more likely to take corrective or redemptive action.

    So according to that, we might be better off positively encouraging those who are broken in spirit, since they are likely to react poorly against anything they perceive as being negative or shaming. While we should concentrate our attempts to induce guilt mostly against those with high self-esteem, especially when they take pride in their sin. Those with high self-esteem are more prepared to feel guilt than shame and are much more likely to benefit from the guilt induced by shaming.
    While the natural inclination of many will be to suck up to the cool people and to shame the outcasts. Society will benefit the most if we praise the good deeds of the broken in spirit, and concentrate our shaming on those who are most likely to benefit from being humbled.

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  21. Sharkly – I wasn’t looking for sympathy, but for answers. I was genuinely confused. Especially because the owner of said blog limited her own family size (for legitimate reasons) and doesn’t encourage marital separation.

    I am sorry to hear things are still terrible for you, and especially sad about your separation from your boys. As my own boys get older it is more and more obvious to me how much they need their father in their lives. Even though my husband and 16 year old son now bond over alcohol at the kitchen table (which I hate but can’t do much about) I can see how much he needs his father’s time and influence.

    Please, if you will, keep my family in your prayers. Coronavirus is now in the small town I live in, our shop is probably going to go under due to people running scared, and my father, who has end stage heart failure, is a casual contact of one of the two confirmed cases here. Scary times for us!

    I agree with the last comment about shaming working for people needing to be humbled. I have seen it work. It was his own shame that did it, though. Not deliberate shaming by others.

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  22. Also: All addicts/addictions are selfish. It is the nature of addiction. When not mired in addiction the person themselves may not be selfish, but addiction makes them that way. I don’t think it matters what the addiction is; the effect they have on the addict is all the same.

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  23. Sharkly,
    Thanks for the update. I am sorry this has dragged on so long for you and for your boys. I will continue to pray for you and your family.

    Liked by 1 person

  24. I think I found the discussion you were referring to, Ace. They wrongly interpret the story of Onan, from Genesis 38, to come up with the idea that contraception is wrong. “Every sperm is sacred.”

    God made men to naturally have wet dreams or nocturnal emissions, and fruitlessly spill their seed periodically. My first orgasms were in my sleep, and this was not by any evil on my part, I was truly shocked and surprised. My body had just felt a most wonderful new sensation, a gift of God, and yet I was awakened out of a romantic dream by my wonderful first orgasm, only to discovered a huge sticky mess in my underpants that then required some secret hand laundering while still dazed in the middle of the night. None of that was by choice, and I had no evil intention in the matter. The fruitless spilling of my seed, and my attempt to clean up the big mess was not sinful, it happened because God was making me a man, and that was just a part of God’s process. Nor was I struck dead by God for having my first orgasm by myself in my sleep, and wasting a huge load of top quality seed on the Fruit-of-the-Loom guys. If some of those folks nonsense were true, husbands would be required to refuse to have sex with their wives after menopause, throwing them both into temptation, since they’d be wasting their seed fruitlessly in an expired womb.

    Honor and follow your husband; ignore the rest.

    Like

  25. I shudder to think of the agonizing regret and anguish she will have in eternal torment, having so oppressed the innocent and ignored all calls for her to do justly.

    i understand.

    the lingering consequences of his choices … are harsh.

    i continue to pray as God brings you to mind. may you find peace and rest in Him even when your soul is crying out in pain over your sons.

    Liked by 1 person

  26. Ace – i think that one of the things your questions above about how many children you have, honoring your husband, other people’s views, etc … feeds into another very important issue … and that’s that, even when our husband’s make mistakes, and they will, we still respect, honor, and follow them. IF he had made a mistake in allowing you to get your tubes tied (iirc – short on time to reread), you still honor and respect and follow him. when he needs forgiveness, we forgive and let go.

    both husband and wife will make mistakes the other must ‘suffer’ for. that’s how life works. but that doesn’t change our roles 🙂

    Liked by 2 people

  27. You are extremely kind hearted, Sharkly, just in the way you react to some of the people here one can tell that.

    Definitely praying for you and your sons 🙏 and heartbroken you’re all going through this.

    Liked by 1 person

  28. Actually I’m not kind hearted by nature. It is only the fear of God that keeps my selfish sin nature under control. My wife’s infidelity has kept me simmering in a murderous rage for over 17 years now.(which is just where she is cruelly addicted to maintaining me to keep emotional intimacy to a minimum) However, if folks try to provoke me online, they have their work cut out for them, considering all the provocation I’ve lived with my entire life. My own mother used to intentionally mock me and provoke me, seemingly to try to get me angry whenever she wasn’t very busy. And my siblings all took advantage of the fact that my mother would side against me any chance she got. I think it is the work of Satan that I have been intentionally tormented for most of my life. But it is the work of God in me, that I patiently endure this abuse for Him, as well as I try to. And I actually have considerable compassion on those who assail me, knowing that it most generally is deep hurt and deep distrust in their own lives that brings them to lash out at God and me.

    When a woman recites a litany of abuse accusations against her husband, and I respond by telling her to submit to him in everything as unto the Lord. That’s actually what I think will be for her eternal best, and that God, Himself, who spoke those instructions, will insure it. If they rebel against those instructions from God’s word, I’m not going to take it personally; their issue is fundamentally with God, not His messengers. Nor is it an act of love to teach people to wallow in self pity and entitlement, instead of teaching them to overcome through faithfully obeying the Lord regardless of their emotions and circumstances. I wouldn’t tell women to submit to “abuse”(1 Peter 2:13-3:6) if I didn’t love them and want what is best for them. If I just wanted my ego stroked, or to find agreement, I’d tell them what they want to hear. Half of having a wonderful society is teaching people they must try to endure some troubles joyfully. A society or a person who feels entitled to perfection from all other humans, is doomed to be very disappointed and unhappy.

    Liked by 1 person

  29. simmering in a murderous rage for over 17 years now

    i understand it (as much as i can), but that’s exhausting. do you ever see God removing that rage and anger from you?

    i’ve had to pray these verses often, daily, over the years, and ask God to enable me to do so b/c i was incapable of doing so on my own: Ephesians 4:31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

    Liked by 1 person

  30. Do you ever see God removing that rage and anger from you?

    Yes and no. I can choose not to be angry, I control that.
    James 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
    I’ll always be at enmity with this world, if I truly am a servant of God’s. I’ll always hate injustice and all liars. I have prayed and asked God that those things which make God angry, would make me angry also, that I would see things as He sees them.
    Judges 14:18 And the men of the city said unto [Samson] on the seventh day before the sun went down, What is sweeter than honey? And what is stronger than a lion? and he said unto them, If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle. 19 And the Spirit of the Lord came upon him, and he went down to Ashkelon, and slew thirty men of them, and took their spoil, and gave change of garments unto them which expounded the riddle. And his anger was kindled, and he went up to his father’s house.
    The Lord sought an occasion against the Philistines.(Judges 14:4) Turning a man’s bride against him was justification for the Holy Spirit to have Samson kill 30 Philistines, the same number that had turned his wife to betray his riddle. God’s name is Jealous.(Exodus 34:14) And then Samson got angry!(a work of the Holy Spirit upon God’s judge) God hasn’t let Satan spend the bulk of my life angering me for nothing. Although I don’t yet know the purpose, I know the power. My King is coming to judge and make war. And as His servant, I’m also being prepared to judge and make war for Him. There will be a time when the world will be ruled with a rod of iron, there will be a time when the day of mercy is over.

    However, if my wife finishes her divorce. Then I will no longer be her head, her leader, and her personal well-being will no longer be a concern of mine. I will have spent my very last day in a jealous rage. She will no longer be mine, and I will need not care about her infidelity. I will go on as a man delivered from bondage. Her Christless choice to end our marriage will, by the mercy of God, wipe off the shit I stepped in when I married into her immoral “Jerry Springer” family.
    And should a miracle happen and God chooses to answer my prayers and give her the grace to seek repentance, there too, if her repentance is real, and she is changed from a child of darkness into a child of light, I reckon my feelings and demeanor towards her will change to suit her behavior.(Love is not a feeling) Quite honestly I’ve always been ready to have a great marriage to my wife, but, she just never showed up. On my wedding day some intimacy hating demon suddenly replaced the girl I’d fell in love with and married.
    Either way, if she repents or if she finishes divorcing me, my life will end up far better off than being unequally yoked to a woman in such blinded bondage to evil, who won’t allow herself to be helped. It will continue to be horrible for the kids, and it will blaspheme the word of God, but those will be her sins, not mine. I have done my part to lead. She just refused to ever follow, and I rest assured knowing that I am in no way at fault for that. The churchian cunt-worshipers will claim that my wife might have followed a better leader. LOL She doesn’t even follow God, nor do they, so they’re still just pathetic pussy-pass-peddling emasculated cowards who shill for satanic Feminism. Out here where I live, I don’t know of hardly anybody besides myself who isn’t ashamed of some of the truth in God’s word. I don’t always understand everything in God’s word, but I’m proud of it all, and I fully believe the all knowing Author who cannot lie. Job was the most righteous man of his time, and was apparently angry for the whole time of his satanic trials. If I’m more righteous than the faithless God forsaking fools who are ashamed of God’s word, and I’m often angry, and have enduring anger against those Feminists who work to destroy God’s patriarchal design for the family, who have damaged my own marriage, and it is apparent to me that I can be kind, compassionate, and forgiving at the same time, then perhaps there is a time for anger in the life of the righteous. And perhaps every moment of every day I would rather make peace than have contention, but every day my wife makes sure that the sun still goes down on my jealous anger. Am I to leave off the character and name of God(Jealous) for apathy? No, every day God leads me like a shepherd. I’m climbing up a narrow and winding way. My God is going to return and deal out the wrath of His Father, and He will justly cast almost all of this generation into hell, who were not grieved unto anger at the injustice, hostility, and pride of their own wicked and adulterous generation, fully at enmity with God. Amen! Come quickly Lord Jesus! I often grow weary, and I long for your rest. May it be today!

    Liked by 2 people

  31. Somehow I don’t see the simmering rage part 🙂 … I get it that it’s there underneath, but you do a very good job keeping it in check and being kind – even having levity with us here. Definitely has to be a fear of God thing, because watching people try to rile you up over whatever they’re offended by is unbelievable considering the weight of what you’re already enduring.

    “Job was the most righteous man of his time, and was apparently angry for the whole time of his satanic trials.”

    Yes, it’s a good reminder that human nature doesn’t change… I think the thing I love most about reading Job is seeing how human he was in his feelings, and how awful his friends were in trying to blame him and mentally afflict him when he was already devastated by trials. No one is perfect, not even Job was, so it’s comforting to know we can be human.

    I’m so sorry about your childhood, my husband had a similar situation but it was his father who was like that. I was so naive in thinking that kind of stuff gets worked out over time. The rift between him and his siblings is still there in varying degrees… his own brother & sister in law didn’t even acknowledge our latest son’s birth of all things! Just lots of painful things like that which I’m sure you’ve lived with and understand how they never really go away fully. I’m only **just** coming to understand I need to accept those things, that they’ll always reject us, our children, our marriage, etc. Ame is the one who has really helped me see all of that, and deal with the pain of it.

    But hopefully you can gain some encouragement from us here… hopefully we can cheer you on and support you and lift you up as you’re going through hell. Ideally this should come from a church, but that’s increasingly rare these days.

    Liked by 2 people

  32. Ideally this should come from a church, but that’s increasingly rare these days.

    well … our perception of ‘the church’ is the local, physical, body of Christ … but all of us who are Believers are the church! pretty cool how the world wide web can draw us together to be there for one another 🙂

    love you, Sweet Stephanie 🙂

    Liked by 2 people

  33. Stephanie,
    Yes, you folks are encouraging. Thank you for that. But what encourages me the most, is when I feel I’ve been able to help somebody else. Because ultimately I’m trying to blog for God’s kingdom. I can vent my anger and relieve my stress privately, so I’m not online to vent, even if I do. You are right, that the church should be a place where we can go for solutions to our problems. But the churchians only give out blame, and lame excuses to husbands who want help with troublesome wives. I once went to a church where the associate pastor taught in a sermon, that you shouldn’t really FEAR God. That dumbass! The fear of God is the very beginning of wisdom. Which that fool does not have, and he is trying to snatch it away from others also. And then churchians try to shame you for not returning every week to hear more lies, excuses, and false teaching from false brethren. LOL

    Ame is right. We Christ followers are the church, and we are likely so few and far between, that the internet is the best way for us to meet up. God is not limited by time and space, and I thank Him for this great tool to spread His truth, and to provide the true Christian fellowship, that the local bricks & mortar outlet of great whore worship can’t provide.

    Today’s message:

    Repent of ALL your sin
    Fear God and flee from evil
    Love God above all, Love others as yourself
    Forgive others
    Believe God as true and everyone else a liar
    Act justly, grant mercy, live humbly
    Live out the gender role God gave you
    Never be ashamed of any of God’s word

    Liked by 1 person

  34. My wife’s “church” once scoffed at me for no longer attending a local cunt-worship club like theirs. Apparently they claim you’ve fallen away from God if you don’t occupy one of their folding chairs most every Sunday morning.
    Anyhow, their church has been cancelled for the last two weeks and will not meet for the unforeseen future, because those hypocrites are now too afraid of dying to meet together. LOL They should be!

    Like

  35. Sharkly – If you’re most encouraged by being able to help somebody else, then I should probably say thank you for helping me so much. I know you probably intended to help men with your blog and not a woman, but you’ve helped me immensely. And I thank you for that.
    Quite ironic really, when my reasons for coming here weren’t entirely Christian – as you’ll remember, I came here to see what made you so bitter (after seeing your comments on Lori’s blog). I didn’t come here looking for help, but I found it.

    Our little Sunday morning fellowship meetings all over the country have been cancelled thanks to the coronavirus, so have our gospel meetings. So no church for me for the foreseeable future, sadly. It was very strange this morning, not having fellowship. Didn’t really feel like Sunday. So I’m really appreciating places like this blog, right now.

    It’s not shut because we’re afraid of dying, but because public gatherings of more than 100 people have been banned.The gospel meeting in my small town doesn’t have 100 people, but more than 100 attend in the bigger towns and cities. And for the small fellowship meeting that is held in the elder’s home, all over the country they have been stopped for now because firstly, a number of old people go (our country is at alert level 2 which means all old people and those with compromised immunity should stay home) and secondly, our preachers want to be seen to be doing the right thing. Apparently there was a church in Korea or somewhere that spread the virus and there were suggestions of charging those people with murder?? I’m not sure exactly what happened there, but our preachers don’t want to take any chances. The one big church who blatantly flouted recommendations and held church today has attracted heaps of negativity. Just about every single church in the country is closed, from what I’ve read.

    Anyway Sharkly, I’ll say it again: thank you. And I’m positive I’m not the only one you have helped.

    Liked by 1 person

  36. “My wife’s “church” once scoffed at me for no longer attending a local cunt-worship club like theirs. Apparently they claim you’ve fallen away from God if you don’t occupy one of their folding chairs most every Sunday morning.”

    I still attend church and believe it is important for Christians to attend.

    But, I also understand that this is why so many men no longer attend church. Church leaders have repelled them away with their wimpy interpretations of Scripture.

    Sharkly, thanks for blogging.

    Liked by 1 person

  37. I have added source references to these life instructions.

    Repent of ALL your sin
    Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

    Fear God and flee from evil
    Job 28:28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

    Love God above all, Love others as yourself
    Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

    Forgive others
    Matthew 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

    Believe God as true and everyone else a liar
    Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

    Act justly, grant mercy, live humbly
    Micah 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.

    Live out the gender role God gave you
    Romans 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
    1 Corinthians 7:24 So, brethren, in whatever state each was called, there let him remain with God.

    Never be ashamed of any of God’s word
    Mark 8:38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.

    Liked by 1 person

  38. Thanks, Bee. And thank you to all who comment. And I even thank any lurkers who just read.

    Thank you very much, Ace. I am so glad to hear that. I still think you’re wrong about what drew you here. LOL
    How has your son, who was having the seizures, been doing lately?

    Liked by 1 person

  39. So what do you think drew me here, Sharkly?
    Thanks for thinking of my son. He’s on medication to control his seizures and is doing great. He was meant to be seeing the paediatrician later this month, but our entire country has just today gone into lockdown for the next 4 weeks at least, so the appointment has been cancelled. All non-urgent healthcare has been postponed. We hate him being on medication, but it’s better than the alternative – seizures. And right now, with our health care system so focused on this covid-19 thing, the last thing we want is more seizures.

    Liked by 1 person

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